Big Muddy Monster

Hey, true weirdos at the end of this episode, stick around if you want for a little bonus content and conversation. Leroy Summers wasn't drunk, and he wasn't crazy. He saw what he saw. And he called the police in Cairo, Illinois to report it. It was right near the Ohio River levee in Cairo, he said, just plain as day. It was a dirty white hairy creature standing on two legs had to be 10 feet tall, Leroy said. The police took the report, but who believed it? A trick of the light and overactive imagination could have been anything right? Besides, no one else saw a thing. Until the following summer, 59 miles up the road in the town of Murfreesboro. What happened there caught the attention of people all over the country, including this kid from California. Dear Sir, we read in the Fresno Bee about your monster. My mom can catch it.

She is good to please let her try. She loves big adventure like this one. Right her. She is my mom and I know how good she is. Her name is Georgie subpoena. Where there is terror she loves to solve. She is good with guns and knives also. And they got a small beam of light. Stuff. Murfreesboro, Illinois is home to just under 8000 people today. And you may not have heard of it. But we have Murfreesboro to thank for one of our major holidays. The town was built on land donated by Dr. John Logan and his wife, Elizabeth Logan. Dr. Logan served in the Civil War as a volunteer general then was elected to the Senate, where he served for a total of 12 years. He ran for vice president in 1884. And at the time of his death in 1886, he was a strong presidential hopeful. Dr. Logan was the most important figure in the creation of Memorial Day, which was observed for the very first time on May 30 1868. counties in four states are named for him. And so is Logan Square in Chicago and Logan Circle in Washington, DC. That's not all Murfreesboro is known for. Back in 1925. On the afternoon of March 18. The tri tornado slammed into the town at 73 miles an hour. It was the deadliest tornado in US history, and the second deadliest in the world. It scoured a track 219 miles long, the longest tornado track ever recorded as it crossed from southeastern Missouri through southern Illinois, and then into southwestern Indiana. 154 city blocks in Murfreesboro were wiped out. The town itself was all but destroyed. 623 people were injured and 234 people lost their lives. The highest death toll by tornado for any single community in US history. The people of Murfreesboro rebuilt by early 1930. Less than five years after the disaster, it was no longer a devastated wasteland but a thriving city complete with a brand new county courthouse in the city square. Things were quiet and prosperous until December 1957. When yet another tornado took aim at Murfreesboro. Wind gusts reached speeds of 175 miles an hour.

This time the death toll was lower, but no less terrible. 40 were injured and 10 people died. Four from the same family. 30 houses were destroyed, half of those by fires that raged in the tornado's wake. And again, Murfreesboro rebuilt. By October 1960, the city council approved a resolution to tear down the last of the buildings damaged by the 1957 twister. Seven years later, 100 unit high rise was under development. And that right there tells you who the people of Murfreesboro were.

Undaunted and optimistic. The town might have been smack in the middle of Illinois tornado alley, but its residents were not about to be defeated by the weather. They scanned the skies, paid attention to the barometer, listened to the blaring siren of the local tornado warning system. They were pragmatic people, hardworking descendants of coal miners and rail workers and farmers. They didn't scare easily. And all of that changed just after midnight in June 1973.

Listen to this from a city of Murfreesboro police report filed by patrol officers James Nash and Merrill Lindsay. At approximately 2355 hours June 25 1973 complainant came to Murfreesboro Police Department and reported some type of creature in the woods north of the Big Muddy River next to the boat ramp parking area. Officers Nash and Lindsay were dispatched to the area. The complainant was 19 year old Randy Needham. He'd been out that night with his girlfriend Judy Johnson. There's a catch though. Judy's father had forbidden her from seeing Randy. The pair had to keep their relationship on the down low. So they chose a secluded spot to hang out. They drove to Riverside Park near the town's boat ramp overlooking the Big Muddy River. They were listening to the radio and you know, you know, when suddenly complainant heard a loud screaming sound in the wooded area. It was a roar like an eagle shrieking into a microphone.

That roar was followed by the sound of movement in the brush almost directly in front of the car. In a panic, Randy flicked on the headlights. Complainants observed a large creature approximately seven feet tall. The creature appeared to have light colored fur matted with mud. The creature appeared to be walking on two legs and was proceeding toward his car. Randy and Judy couldn't process what they were seeing. An enormous filthy thing lumbering toward the car and smelling so gross, like sewage and river mud. Worse, it was still screaming.

It's tone changing. The closer it came. Complainant left the scene and came to Murfreesboro Police Department. Hold up there Officer Nash. Not so fast. The very freaked out Randy and Judy did eventually go to the police that night. But they had to talk it out first. Judy knew that going to the cops meant her father finding out that she had disobeyed him, lied to him, and was not only hooking up with the forbidden Randy, she was with him in a dark, isolated spot by the river. And while you might think that 1973 was all quaaludes and free love, it sure wasn't in Murfreesboro. The number of times that Randy and Judy were described as an unmarried couple code for these two are having sex in a car down by the river. Oh my god. It's almost funny. That said, patrol officer and now retired Murfreesboro Police Chief Ron Manwaring found their unmarried status to be evidence of their credibility. He said they risk being shamed and mocked and punished by Judy's father.

There was no advantage for them to come up and report this. And yes, officers Nash and Lindsay were skeptical. A couple of teenagers making out in a car got startled and scared and let their imaginations run wild. Even so, the incident had to be investigated. Nash and Lindsay headed for the boat ramp at Riverside Park. Officers located impressions in the mud approximately three to four inches deep approximately 10 to 12 inches long and approximately three inches wide.

It is unknown what made the impressions. And then the thing that witnesses to the strange and inexplicable always hoped for happened as officer Nash bent over the odd impression in the mud to get a closer look. This is the most incredible shriek I've ever heard. It was in those bushes. It was no bobcat or screech out. We hightailed it out of there. Officer Nash was so startled by the sound that he bolted, accidentally dropping his service pistol in his rush to get the hell out of there. As the two cops sped back to the station to recruit some help.

They estimated that whatever made that sound had been maybe 300 feet away tops at approximately Oh 200 hours officers Nash and Lindsay Deputy Scott and the complainant. That's Randy Needham remember returned to the area with boots to inspect the area further where the creature was seen. Officers discovered prints in the mud similar to the prints described above except they were deeper in the mud and not as long as the others appeared. Officer Lindsay left the area to obtain a camera to photograph the prints. The prints in the mud were very erratic in that no two were the same distance apart and some were five to six feet apart. Also prints were found close together.

Oh, that piercing deafening roar again. And this time, there was a new witness. Deputy Scott, a loud shrill shriek came to the wooded area to the southeast near the river and seemed to be approximately 100 yards away. Needham immediately stated that was the creature officers and Needham retreated out of the wooded area back to the squad car and advised Officer Lindsay of what occurred and requested Sergeant Tenshire to come to the scene to photograph the tracks.

After a tense wait, the men cautiously emerged from the squad car. Using the vehicle spotlight, they swept the area watching for any sign of movement. They searched until sun up and while they heard the sounds of splashing in the distance, the sounds a large animal might make as it moved through shallow water, they said. They saw nothing more. It had been the strangest night. But you know, it is. Daylight has a way of scrubbing a nightmare clean. Surely there was no monster lurking in the big muddy river. There's no such thing as monsters. Every grown up knew that. They chalk the whole incident up to just the thing that had happened in the night. An experience that would evaporate like mist under the glare of the sun. Just something weird that will make for a great story. They were wrong. The very next day, June 26 1973. Another call came into the Murfreesboro Police Department. This time the report was taken by radio dispatcher, Officer P. McRoy. At approximately 2212 hours, Murfreesboro Police Department received a phone call from Mrs. Harry Ray, stating that her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend had just seen a large creature in the field behind their residence. Officers Nash and Manwaring were dispatched.

Poor Officer Nash. He thought he was done with monsters. It hadn't even been 24 hours since his last go around. Upon arrival, officers were met by Cheryl A. Ray and Randy E. Creath, which gave the following account of what occurred. Sidebar, is it me? Or are all the teenage boyfriends in Murfreesboro named Randy? Randy and Cheryl were sitting on the patio talking when they observed something moving around a patch of small trees. Both Randy and Cheryl watched and observed a large creature walk out of the patch of trees near the edge of the yard and then turn and walk back into the field. The creature was described as being seven or eight feet tall, weighing 300 to 350 pounds. Pale, dirty white or cream colored and standing on two feet. Randy Creath stated that he walked toward it and got approximately 30 to 40 feet from it. Creath also stated that it had a musky odor. This guy, Randy Creath, has my full respect. He did what a lot of us say we'd do if we ever encountered something inexplicable. He tried to get a closer look and no wonder Randy's father was a former state trooper turned minister of a Baptist church in Iowa. Randy had been raised with the law of the land and the law of the Lord. As far as Randy was concerned, even if he walked through the valley of the shadow of death, he feared no evil. He had both the rod and the staff of God to comfort him and he walked toward the creature after flipping on the porch lights and seeing that it was nothing he had ever seen before. That's some guts right there. Well, the thing I remember was the bulk of it, the shape of it, the human form and the stench of the river slime it apparently had on it.

It was about 8 feet tall and at least as stocky as a New York football player. We were within 15 feet of it, close enough to see the body, the texture, the fur, long and hairy like an English sheepdog. Officers inspected the area where the creature was seen and found weeds broken down and somewhat of a path where something had walked through. The Murfreesboro Police decided to call in reinforcements. Jerry Nellis was notified to bring his dog to the area to see if the dog could track the creature. Upon arrival of Nellis and his dog, a German shepherd trained to attack search buildings and track the dog was led to the area where the creature was last seen. It was real tall, hairy, I think white, but it was dirty, matted, had a real bad odor. It was really rank. I never smelled anything like it. It seemed like an eternity we stood there and then it just turned around and walked off into the woods. We could hear it tramping through the woods. Cheryl Ray added it was impossible to make out any facial features. The figure had a head and very large shoulders and very long arms. It stood erect on two legs like a human. It didn't make any sounds. It just walked away. Was I scared? You bet. I was up all night.

And then there was the pungent stench. Even the cops on the scene, officers Nash and Manwaring could smell whatever it was. The scent lingered. The dog began tracking down the hill where the creature was reported to have gone. As the dog started down the hill, it kept stopping and sniffing at a substance on the weeds. The slime appeared periodically as the dog tracked the creature. Nellis put some of the slime between his fingers, rubbed it, and it left a black coloring on his fingers. Each time the dog found amounts of it, the dog would hesitate. The creature was tracked down the hill to a pond, then around the pond to a wooded area south of the pond where the dog attempted to pull Nellis down a steep embankment. By this point, there were 14 police officers on the scene. The dog whose name was Reb had assisted the Murfreesboro Police Department in the past. He was the goodest and smartest of boys, and had earned the respect of his fellow law enforcement professionals. It was clear to the cops that Reb was on the trail of something.

The area where the dog tracked the creature was too thick and bushy to walk through. So the dog was pulled off the trail and turned to the car. Officers then searched the entire area with flashlights, flashlights, rifles, and pistols, and the cops found more of that peculiar slime. I saw the substance and smelled the smell myself. Meanwhile, as Reb the dog was being led back to Nellis's car, he suddenly bolted. Reb made a beeline for an abandoned barn on the property adjacent to Cheryl Ray's place. That was unusual enough. Reb was a highly disciplined dog, unlikely to ever disobey a command. When he reached the barn, its door weathered and decaying. Reb stopped abruptly and began whimpering. The dog was shaking.

Instead of his usual deep bark, he was yelping like a hurt puppy. The dog would not enter the barn. Nellis pushed the dog inside and the dog immediately ran out. Officer Nash and Nellis searched the building but found nothing inside. Nellis stated that the dog was trained to search buildings and had never backed down from anything. Nellis could offer no explanation as to why the dog became scared and would not go inside the barn.

For all the skeptics out there, we'll remind you that it's the Murfreesboro Police Department telling this story. Not your drunk Uncle Danny who everyone knows is a total whack job. Now it had been a long day and an even longer night, but it wasn't over. Dave Barrell, neighbor of the Ray's, stated that approximately 10 minutes prior to Randy Krieth and Cheryl Ray sighting the creature, his child had come into the house and stated that there was a large ghost in their backyard. Barrell stated that he got nothing of it until Krieth and Cheryl Ray sighted the creature.

Christian Barrell, just five years old, was in his backyard with a mason jar trying to catch fireflies. As the child scampered through the grass, he was suddenly surprised by an enormous pale shape looming over the fence that separated his family's property from the Ray's. The kid bolted for the house screaming and sobbing that he had seen a ghost.

Strangely, Christian's frightening encounter in the backyard sounded an awful lot like an even more terrifying experience that happened to another boy in Illinois, Greg Garrett. Greg, 10 years old, lived in Enfield, Illinois, not Murfreesboro. The two towns are about 72 miles apart. Greg was playing in his own backyard when a creature he described as having three legs, slimy gray skin, claws and eyes with a red glow suddenly appeared and attacked. Whatever this creature was, the boy said it stomped on his feet clawing his sneakers into ribbons. You can best believe that kid tore himself away and raced for his own backdoor and the protection of his parents.

They called it the Enfield monster. And that's a whole giant story for another time. But it's intriguing that the events in Murfreesboro so closely followed the bewildering stories coming out of Enfield. So a few days went by and then a week and it seemed as though whatever the creature was, it was no longer anywhere near Murfreesboro. The police were relieved. The town was settling back into its normal peaceful rhythm. Then came July 7 1973. A traveling carnival had been in town for 10 days. They'd set up in Riverside Park, not too far from the old boat ramp, just a ways up river from the sewage processing plant, which happened to be below the house belonging to the Ray family. This was a pretty big operation as carnivals go. Tents, rides, even a small herd of trained Shetland ponies, all part of Murfreesboro's extended Fourth of July celebration. It was about two o'clock in the morning on July 7. A few of the carnies, Ray Adkerson, Wesley Lavender and Otis Norris were kicked back behind one of the trucks talking. A couple of part time workers had stolen the day's take from one of the concessions and bolted. But that was about to be forgotten. There was a sudden burst of movement and the sounds of high pitched whinnying coming from the Shetland ponies tethered at the tree line just a few yards away from the trucks. From a report filed by Murfreesboro Police Department, Officer James Nash. At approximately 1805 hours, July 7 1973, officers Nash and Gold were stopped at Riverside Park by complainant Burt Miller, owner of Miller Carnival, to report his workers seeing a large creature near the carnival area the previous morning. Miller stated that he did not report it at the time as the report might have scared off persons which would visit the carnival. Yikes, but not really surprising to hear that a carnival would rather gamble on a monster than risk losing ticket sales. Miller directed officers to four workers which observed the creature. The workers stated that at approximately 0200 hours July 7 1973, they heard the ponies causing a disturbance and attempting to pull loose from the trees which they were tied to. The workers proceeded around the truck to check the ponies and observed a large creature described a seven to eight feet tall, light brown hair all over its entire body standing erect on two legs and weighing 300 to 400 pounds. The creature was reported standing very near the ponies and seemed to be curious of them and made no advance. Listen, I know you're worried about these poor ponies. But if you ever met a pony, they're small and adorable and look like your friend. But in reality, they can be vicious little ninjas who live to kick and bite in a ponies versus creature match. My money's on the ponies.

Let's see what happened next. The workers ran to the carnival owners trailer and reported it to him upon checking the area with the owner the creature was gone. See what I mean? The you don't want it with us. Like we don't even make friends for God's sake take the hint. At Oh 300 hours Charles Kimball carnival workers stated that the creature appeared again near the ponies and again seemed interested in the ponies. Kimball ran to the owner's trailer and upon checking with the owner found the creature was gone. No footprints could be located in the area.

Charles Kimball said that the way the creature studied those ponies head cock to one side. Well, it just seemed to him that whatever it was, it was just deeply profoundly curious as to what those ponies might be. Word got out. And soon a crowd swarmed Riverside Park. Hundreds of people stomping around in search of the creature they were now calling the big muddy monster in honor of the big muddy river. Lots of folks in that crowd were armed. The Murfreesboro police chief now had a new problem on his hands. The risk of trigger happy townspeople accidentally shooting each other in their hunt for a monster. So the townspeople were hunting the monster, but they didn't see it. What they couldn't see they could hear. Mrs. Nedra Green living in an isolated farmhouse in Murfreesboro was getting ready for bed when she heard what she called a shrill piercing scream coming from outside.

Coming from behind her garden shed. There it is again, she said. Never underestimate the fortitude of a Midwestern farmer, especially not one living in Tornado Alley, who has seen things and experienced things. No screaming creature in the night was going to disrupt her well earned rest. Thank you very much. Nedra left it to the Lord to sort out, turned off the lights and went to bed. Nedra Green was the last resident of Murfreesboro to report any contact with the creature until the summer of 1976. There were other reports though from witnesses near Murfreesboro, like in February 1975, when four truckers called into Randolph County via CB radio. Each described spotting an enormous bear like animal on the highway close to the junction of State Roads 3 and 149. One of the truckers said to him it looked like some kind of big gorilla.

Then in July 1975, a couple of men out late at night gigging frogs on a pond near a church. That means hunting for frogs with a multi pronged spear for all you fancy city folks. That guy called police to report seeing a white shaggy haired creature about seven feet tall. Things stay quiet until the following summer. From a June 27 1976 Murfreesboro Police Department report received by Officer Jay Hines. Once again, it was Officer Nash who was dispatched to the scene. Here's Officer Hines.

At approximately 2100 hours, MPD received a report from Merle Mifflin that the big muddy monster had been seen near his residence. The complainant stated that his two children, Michael Mifflin and Melinda Mifflin were playing just north of their residence with a friend Karen Gruber when they saw a large animal walking through a small wooded area where they were playing. The complainant also stated that his dog was with the children when he started barking and would not enter the wooded area. The complainant states that this was a strange way for his dog to be acting. Officers accompanied by the complainant checked the entire area surrounding the residence on foot but could find no trace of any type of large animal. Police then interviewed the three kids. Michael Mifflin described the monster as to be six feet tall, weighing five to six tons. He observed the monster along the creek bank southwest of his house. Five to six tons would be as big or bigger than a hippopotamus. But remember, these are children and children don't necessarily have, you know, the most accurate grasp of dimensions. Karen Gruber stated that she and the other two witnesses were playing on a swing approximately 75 feet northwest of the residence when she heard something walking in the wooded area. As the dog began barking, she observed an object that was real tall, fat and big and walking around in the woods. The third witness, Melinda Mifflin, was also playing near the swing and she saw just an object walking in the woods.

A few weeks after the Mifflin kids sighting, three 11 year old boys chasing a baseball that had been hit into the woods got the scare of their lives. One of the boys, David Taylor, said that what he'd seen was gray and hairy with like big ears. He estimated the creature to be about eight feet tall with arms that reached all the way to the ground. David said it was just standing there, staring at the boys who took off running in the opposite direction. The then Murfreesboro Chief of Police Toby Berger believed the boys had seen something and their parents believed them too, telling the cops that these kids were not lying. Chief Berger suggested that the creature was nothing more than a black bear standing on its hind legs. It could appear six feet tall that way. Plus, maybe the lights of the mercury vapor street lamps made its fur look dirty white. Who knows? Except, except for the fact there hadn't even been one black bear in the Murfreesboro area for years. The county conservation officer put it bluntly. All the bears in this part of the world have been killed off. Biologists at Southern Illinois University agreed. They were highly skeptical that there could be any large carnivores near Murfreesboro. Possible? Okay, sure, maybe. But likely? No.

Very unlikely. And one more ever so slight problem. None of the sightings had taken place under or near a street lamp. Julius Rodman, an archaeologist specializing in cultures of the Pacific, took all of these sightings seriously. He was an Illinois native and he followed the story with tremendous interest. He wrote to the Murfreesboro Chief of Police and enclosed several news clippings about similar sightings that had taken place decades before the big muddy monster made his first appearance. Julius Rodman pointed to the discovery in 1889 of an enormous hand ossified nearly into stone. When found, that huge, almost stone hand held 11 diamonds of exceptionally fine quality. Then there was the 1906 discovery of a skeleton in the mountains near Los Angeles. A skeleton that measured just one inch shy of eight feet. Rodman said that in his opinion, that creature may have been related to various giant primates that have been witnessed over the last century in the Himalayas, Northern California, the Midwest, and the South. Rodman wasn't alone in theorizing that the big muddy monster was something real, not a hoax. Police Chief Berger was also contacted by Associate Professor Leigh Van Valen at the University of Chicago. Valen wrote to make an offer.

I recently heard of your creature, which could be of considerable scientific interest. There have been many reports of such animals, but no real specimens have been available for scientific study. The reports are often thought to be bears, or men living in the woods, hoaxes and the like. If the creature is shot, it is important that it not be buried. Unless it is a man, of course, of course, the body should not be discarded, or given to sensation seekers, it should be embalmed, or otherwise preserved in good condition. It would be preferable for the undertaker to ship it to me, or some other reputable scientist, because it's study will need laboratory equipment and other materials. But if this cannot be done, I will come myself and arrange matters. I guarantee payment of such expenses involved in making a real specimen available for study. Sincerely yours, Leigh Van Valen.

Many years later, in 2003, another professor was talking about the big muddy monster. Lauren Coleman on faculty at the filmmaker, TV personality and founder of the International Cryptozoology Museum in Portland, Maine. Coleman said that sure, yeah, you could throw away 80% of the reports about cryptids from Bigfoot to Mothman. But that still leaves you with the remaining 20% to investigate. Look at the mountain gorilla, a creature of myth until it was finally proven real after decades of searching. How about the megamouth shark? Another creature of myth until researchers working in Hawaii caught one by accident in 1976.

Coleman said that what we call monsters or Sasquatch or Bigfoot, he calls North American apes, a little smarter than the chimpanzee living in small bands with no use of even simple tools. A nocturnal animal that makes a screeching, shrieking guttural sound. Lauren Coleman estimated a population somewhere between 2000 and 4000 of these animals on this continent. So why have we never stumbled across the body of one of these giant primates? For the same reason, we don't stumble across the bodies of dead bears or mountain lions, said Coleman.

Nature is very efficient when it comes to disposing of the dead. The first ever big muddy monster festival launched in July 2023. Nearly 50 years to the day that Randy and Judy had their fateful makeout session down by the river, ruined by the creature. The festival had vendors, 5k, a screening of a documentary about the monster, expert speakers, and best of all, the unveiling of a nine foot tall bronze statue of the big muddy monster placed at a prominent spot on Muddy Monster Road. To this day, the Murfreesboro, Illinois Police Department has only a handful of cold cases or unsolved cases in its long history. And the mystery of the big muddy monster is one of them. After causing such a commotion in the 1970s, the creature hasn't been spotted again in Murfreesboro. One theory is that it was migrating at the time, just passing through that part of the state when it accidentally became famous. That might account for why big muddy hasn't been seen in Murfreesboro since 1976. Or it could all be fake. What you believe is up to you. But I can tell you this, the officers who work these cases in Murfreesboro, they believed those people were telling the truth. And no evidence of a hoax has ever turned up. So maybe just keep an open mind. And if the big muddy monster still smells as bad today as he did back then, try to stay upwind.

Next time on True Weird Stuff, he was no doctor, and he was no preacher. But he pretended to be both and ended up building his very own town on somebody else's land. It's a mystery in the desert and how that king of quacks did it is an epic American story. And that's on the next True Weird Stuff. Special thanks to our enormous cast of voice talents on this episode, Vivian Fischer, Ashley Palmer Fischer, Robert Fischer, Dave Robertson, Stacey Robertson, Don Morgan, Sam Moore, and Doc Kary Bowser. I think I got everyone. You know, before we started doing True Weird Stuff, I was a skeptic on and I am no longer. It's too much coincidence that so many different people have come up with the same story in so many different places. And I love what it says about the idea that you don't find bear carcasses around. You know, I mean, you go, well, why haven't we found this? You know, I this past weekend was hiking near on the Appalachian Trail, just a little piece of it. I wasn't hiking the whole thing, just this little piece of it that's near Hot Springs, North Carolina. And they had Bigfoot sightings up there a few years ago. And I was hoping.

Oh, yeah, always. I was hoping because they have signs that go beware Bigfoot that are there sort of jokingly, you know, but there are bears in the area as well, because the bears are always stealing food around that area. And I have seen a bear there. But these creatures were different. And I think that these people all describe something that you hear all the time, too. And that is, it's, it's the size. It's the description of the hair, and it's the smell.

And the sound even yeah, the sound like that, that shrieky growling. So last year, we did an episode of two weird stuff called that's a Bigfoot where we interviewed a Bigfoot tracker who is a retired Air Force, US Air Force officer with top, top security clearance, right? The least this is a guy that had never talked about this publicly. We were the first people he ever talked to about it. And while we were working on that episode, we went ahead and took a look at how much undeveloped land we have in the United States, how many inaccessible acres of wilderness we have in the United States.

And the answer is so much like, it would not be all that unlikely for a species of North American ape to quote, Lauren Coleman, it's not terribly unlikely that an animal like that could exist and dodge us. We always act like oh my god, people are so tiresome because we act like you know, well, if we don't know about it, if we haven't seen it, it can't be real. But the truth of it is, the overwhelming majority of us have never stepped foot into the wilderness and wouldn't know what to do with ourselves if we did. There is just so much land and some of it is a lot of it is heavily treed and completely impossible to get a vehicle to. We have a ton of land that's owned by the federal government. Some of it's in the National Park System, some of it isn't that you can't get to. We have a ton of privately owned land that is marked and posted that you can't get to. And so much of it is undeveloped. I think it's silly and arrogant to just make the blanket statement that it's impossible that there might be a species of animal on the North American continent that we're unaware of, especially given how almost every week we discover something new in the world, a new insect, a new amphibian, a new kind of fish, a new species of squirrel. We need to settle down. While I think skepticism is really important, what exhausts me are debunkers who just go, no, that's bullshit, and they have nothing beyond that to offer as an alternative argument.

I think if you look at the similarities of stories of what people told and people, once again, nobody looked like they were trying to make any money out of this deal. When you look at the similarities of the stories that people were telling you go, hey, there is something here. This is not some sort of BS story. There's a couple things that I noticed. You know, the last time when we did a story about this, we did, and dogs had the same reaction in both of these stories. There was this fear that the dog had, and the idea that it sent him off yelping. I'm certainly not any expert on Bigfoot, but I can only think of one instance where Bigfoot actually attacked people. It was in a cabin, I believe. But generally, as frightening as they are, as scary as the sound apparently is, they're not attacking these people. They're not being aggressive. That's kind of interesting to me.

That was a consistent point in the documented cases with the big money monster in Murfreesboro. The animal was curious, but the most aggressive thing about it was the way it smelled. The animal made no move on the Shetland ponies. The animal made no move on the dog or the children. It was just curious, and not seemingly a predator. Even though some filthy, smelly, seven or eight foot tall, 300 or 400 pound thing standing in front of you, like you'd wet yourself, right?

But that was super interesting and very consistent. What I love about the big money monster is how thoroughly these incidents were investigated and how seriously the police took them. Right. Think about that. Yeah, there wasn't any sarcasm in any of those police reports. I mean, they were taking down the facts. In fact, that one officer was like, yeah, I don't want any part of this thing.

Yeah, I just thought it was super interesting that retired police chief Mann-Waring, who at the time was a young patrol officer. To this day, he's like, yeah, there were no lies or hoaxes. Those people saw what they saw. Can't tell you what they saw, but they were telling the truth. I don't know very many instances in the world of cryptids or UFOs or spooky things, where you can tell the entire story through the police department. Because a lot of times these things are, you make a 911 call and they think you're drunk.

Yeah, exactly. Nobody's going to take you seriously. So there are a couple of theories about why we've never gotten a clear picture of one of these animals. So I have to remind you that these sightings took place in 1973, 1975 and 1976. If you're old enough to remember, the best you might have is one of those Instamatic cameras, right? Maybe a Polaroid, maybe a Polaroid. It's not like today where everybody's walking around with a high-res digital camera in their pocket. In the first incident, where the couple Randy and Judy are getting on down by the river, they had a lot of other things on their mind. They probably had not packed a bag of high quality night vision photography equipment when they went down to the river to hook up. So one theory, why we don't have these pictures, although we do have that fascinating Bigfoot film out of the Pacific Northwest.

One reason we don't have these pictures is because these incidents happen, like out of the blue, you're not prepared. And then suddenly it's upon you and you're terrified. Like people talk a good game, debunker bros talk a good game. But I look at some of these guys, I grew up out west, I look at some of these guys and I'm like, listen, Chad, I'm not sure you can find your way out of the woods. Like before you criticize and judge everybody else, you don't know what you would do if you were confronted with what these witnesses were confronted with. Now, today, in the era of cell phones and access to like cheap high quality photography equipment, why don't we have any pictures? Well, if you go back and listen to our episode, that's a Bigfoot. Our Bigfoot tracker has extraordinary pictures of tracks in New Mexico. And I know my debunkers ago, he did that himself to get rich and get famous. Well, don't tell me what his name is and how much he got paid. You can't do it.

Sherry, the debunkers, if this were a movie, the debunkers will be the first ones killed by the creature, don't you think? They need to be eaten. After the orcas finish eating the rich, then Bigfoot needs to eat the debunkers. But now I'm going to give you the woo woo theory on why we don't have clear, high Here we go. There are people who theorize that these creatures call it Sasquatch, Yeti, Bigfoot, Big Muddy, what have you, right? These large ape like creatures are trans dimensional, meaning that they, you know, we live in a three dimensional world, but it's possible to have multiple dimensions. And all of those would be layered on top of each other as thin as a soap bubble, our dimension, the next and so on, the multiverse, right? Stay with me, because this is really woo stuff. And I know it. So the theory is, is that these creatures, it's not that they intend to come here, it's they phase the barriers so thin and permeable, they phase in and out of this reality, this dimension, this world, in the multiverse, they phase in, they phase out. And the reason that it's very difficult to get a clear photo is because you're trying to take a picture of something that that isn't of this reality. And so by definition, you know, it's operating on a completely different wavelength in terms of physics. And so it's going to be kind of sketchy. And that the reason that these creatures can be like, you know, and then you can't find them. Like the dog thought tracking this big, muddy monster to that abandoned barn, and the dog like losing its mind and refusing to go in. But when the cops and the dogs handler went in, there was nothing there except the smell. The multiverse theory would be well, you know, big, muddy phased out. Now that is hard. That's hard for a lot of people to swallow. But in order because in order to buy that argument, right, that these are trans dimensional beings who phase in and out, you have to buy the multiverse, you have to accept, like a whole slew of possibilities and theories and that we are but one of many worlds. And that we can't visit those other worlds. But that doesn't mean we can't. Homo sapiens, we can't. But that doesn't mean that it isn't possible, right? It's just something we can't do. Like, I can't sing. But that doesn't mean that singing is impossible.

It just means I can't do it. So that's the thing. Like, sometimes I'll be like talking to my friends or my family about an episode we're working on. And as soon as I get into like the heavy quantum physics, woo woo multiverse stuff, their eyes glaze over and you can see that they're praying to be, you know, struck by lightning, because it's a tough one to wrap your head around. And I think it's very possible that these creatures are of this world, and this world alone, and they are just incredibly few in number. You know, you think about the North American continent, and even let's say Lauren Coleman's right, and there are 4000 of these primates on the North American continent. Are you kidding me? 4000 of them living in perhaps maybe small units or even as solitary creatures, because we there have been witnesses to both a single one of these entities versus a family or what looked like a family group of them. But 4000 scattered across the North American continent, that's a needle in a haystack. Where's Waldo territory? Is it not? Yeah. Yeah, that's that. Given the amount of land that is available for it to live on.

So I mean, you know, one of the things that I thought was kind of interesting, you did you not say somewhere along the line that somebody had described it as having red eyes? Yeah, some point, the Enfield sighting. It's very interesting, because that is one of the things that's take us into down too much of a rabbit hole. But the Mothman, this flying creature that's had Chicago sightings recently, that is one of the things they talk about with that, too. And the theory on that is that that too may be interdimensional. So maybe, maybe the creatures in the other dimension have red eyes.

There's, um, we need to do we need to dive in and do a Mothman episode. I like your obscure cryptids. But we need to dive in and do a Mothman. One of the things I love about the big muddy monster is that we could sit back and let the police tell the story. Not trying to convince you of any damn thing. I don't know. I wasn't there. I have no idea what it was. And I do tend to lean toward a remnant primate species more than a trans dimensional visitor. But the Mothman thing and the Enfield monster, which is its own whole separate, like legend and lore. But Enfield, as we said in this episode is really close to Murfreesboro. And the sightings of the big muddy monster fall into the timeframe of some of the Enfield monster sightings, which is why some people think you might have been the same, might have been the same animal or being whatever word you want to use. So what about you, Max, do you lean more toward small remnant band of primates or trans dimensional visitor?

I think they're of this this world. I do. The trans dimensional is a great, I'm not saying no to that. But I believe that it's possible for them to live and if there are as few as 1000 in the vast amount of land that we have, where just as nobody, I think that it's very possible that they can live there. Through the years, there have been so many sightings from so many different people. It's just, there's too many of them for this to be just a myth. That's, that's the thing.

And again, like all of these hoaxers for fame and fortune, like you just can't name them. Who is the person that's gotten wealthy off? This is what I want to know. Something that I think we have to think about, again, you know, we're such a cocky, arrogant little bald monkey ourselves as humans. But something we have to think about is this. It wasn't all that long ago, we mentioned it in this episode. And in our sea monsters episode, wasn't all that long ago that people thought gorillas were completely made up. You would say that there were gorillas like in the jungles of Rwanda, right? And people would make fun of you. Oh, there's no such thing. That's a story made up to scare kids. And then they discovered like the gorillas were real.

Our founding fathers who we who are founding fathers who not that long ago didn't know about dinosaurs or gorillas. Huh? No. And and I did point out in this episode, that the mega mouth shark was just a fanciful idea until 1976. When they caught one by accident. Because we think we're so incredibly smart. We, we think that if we head into the woods, we'll find whatever's there. If we drop a hook in the ocean, we'll catch whatever swims by. And we are diluting ourselves. I suspect that, you know, by this point, the year 2024, we would have proved the existence of a mega mouth shark. But if those fishermen in Hawaii hadn't pulled one up by accident, who knows?

It's true. Who knows. And there was so much mockery of the people who argued passionately in favor of the mountain gorilla being real, they were made so much fun of. There was the same for the people that were like the mega mouth shark, we think it's real. They were made fun of. And then, you know, here's the animal and they were proven right. And you can't tell me you can't name a single person who got rich and famous by pretending that gorillas were real. You just can't do it.

No, that holds no water. It really doesn't. Now, the little town of Murfreesboro, it's shrinking. It's like a lot of smaller towns and cities in America, you know, people have to go where the jobs are. And so Murfreesboro's population has shrunk since the summer of 1973, when this whole flap of big muddy monster sightings started. But it's a really special place. In so many ways. It's been singled out by history, a handful of times, that tornado, that first tornado that hit. It was before tornadoes were measured the way they are now on the scale. But yeah. But some meteorologists and scientists speculate that the first tornado that hit Murfreesboro would have been an F six, which is unimaginable, right? That's off the scale. The whole town just scraped off the earth. Then it comes again in 1957. You know, so these are, these are people who have been through it. They're so resilient. They're so capable of weathering catastrophe and rebuilding. These are not people that sit around making stuff up.

It is hard. I mean, these were miners and farmers and railroad workers. You put in a full day on the farm or in the mine or on the railroad. And tell me how much energy you have to come home and make up stories about Bigfoot. So do you wonder like the girl and the boy who were, you know, spotted it who were, you know, on lovers lane there? Do you think that either of them got punished? Or do you think that their parents let it go? Because of what happened?

I think it was let go. But there. So okay, Judy and Randy, the first couple that were down getting it on making out by the river watching submarine race. So the police report does not specify this. But other sources suggest that part of the reason well, the reason Judy's dad didn't want her with Randy is because Judy was married to somebody else. Oh, yeah. So and so he wasn't just being like a heavy hand at these kids today. She was she was stepping out on her husband. But I tried really hard to restrict the story to what the police reported and investigated. Yeah, because I know that people are skeptical and you should be. You should be. But yeah, the police have pointed out that it was really in their best interest to not say anything. Yeah, like, none of these people benefit it from coming forward. None of them did. You've never heard their names before, unless you happen to be listening right now. And you grew up in Murfreesboro and you're and you've been to the festival or whatever. Um, so because it's rare to have a cryptic incident like this, so thoroughly investigated and taken seriously. I thought, well, let's, let's leave gossip and speculation out. And let's just, let's just go with what the police said. Because I think that's pretty compelling. Yeah, it is. Especially when those cops, you know, right to the end, and the chief of police, you know, right to the end, hey, I what nobody was lying. What they saw they saw, which is the chief of police basically saying whatever it was, it was real. And you had so many witnesses. You had all of the people in this episode, you had the truckers that February, right? truckers, long distance truckers, calling in to report a big shaggy a flake thing in the road. I mean, come on.

Yeah, not a bear. And then they like, and the people that are like, Oh, it was a bear. The biologists at Southern Illinois University state fishing game were like, Yeah, no, it wasn't a bear. There are no bears here. Because big carnivores like that, as land gets developed and farmed and cities are built and streets are laid out, the bears go somewhere else.

Sure. This really, this really is a movie. I would love to know who would play the part of the carnival owner who was afraid that okay, yeah, there's this big creature going around. But Shh, don't tell anybody because you know, I got these rides and these ridden games that I want people to play so I can make some money.

Max, after all the work we did on the old time nickel plated circus and the camel girl, right? Are you even a little bit surprised? The guy that owns the carnival was like, on the one hand, there's a monster we saw. On the other hand, we got to get we got to sell some tickets to the Ferris wheel. What? Imagine. I mean, it would have been super cool and terrifying.

If like while the carnival was in full swing, here it comes. Here comes whatever this is, right. And it's a very American thing. We're going to arm ourselves and go and kill it. Now let's all head out. Oh, that that that day that the townspeople gathered at Riverside Park to hunt for the big muddy monster. Okay, first of all, they were making so much noise and such a ruckus in daylight. And if you remember, Loren Coleman said he believes these creatures are nocturnal. Right? Right. They're making such a godforsaken ruckus. They're not going to find a wild animal with any sense is going to listen to that and go I wonder what's going on over there. That's how you scare them away. Right, right. And the cops were petrified. Because these were people that had fished out guns that hadn't been used in a really long time. People who had no real training to operate a weapon. And they're stomping around, you know, jumping at every sound and waving their guns around in the air. It's a tragedy, right? Yeah. Well, they're very fortunate, because the other story that we did about it, the exact same thing happened, you know, that that people all of a sudden decided, hey, we're going to arm ourselves, we're going to go out and kill it.

The idea, the idea, right? The idea that that's your like, can we tranquilize it? Maybe? Can we get fish and game out here with one of those tranquilizer darts? And it does seem to be, as I said before, it seems to be a shy, and really doesn't mean you any harm, despite the fact that it is so imposing, big and smelly. Oh, and the smelly thing. The other nickname for these creatures is skunk ape, because they smell so skunky. One more point real quick. Leigh Van Valen, the professor, the biologist at the University of Chicago. So University of Chicago is sometimes called the Harvard of Midwest, right? took it completely seriously. It's like, remember the episode we did about cattle mutilation, right?

And there were scientists and academics and law enforcement officers who took it completely seriously. They saw what they saw, they knew what they knew. Today, we live in such a snarky, um, disposable culture, that, you know, even if you had like a really legitimate scientist, they would be hesitant to come forward. Look at look at all the mockery that the astrophysicist Harvey Loeb, not Harvey, Av, Av, Avi Loeb, Avi Loeb at Harvard, at Harvard, gets for believing in extraterrestrials. Like, look at how he's and the kind of people that are cramming Cheetos into their pie hole, and they call in this Harvard astrophysicist, an idiot. I'm like, well, yeah, I don't know. I mean, Japers. He does. Well, because he's a very educated man, because if you're a scientist, generally, you go with facts, just like the police department, because they can't convict people on theories, they have to convict people on facts. And so they deal, they're both people who deal with facts. And in both cases, they're going, well, we see the facts. And there's no reasonable explanation for these things.

And that's what I loved about the Murfreesboro cops back then. You know, it was strange, and, and bizarre, and completely out of the scope of anything they'd ever dealt with. But they were like, all right, let's go investigate. Let's, let's get the report. Let's talk to the witnesses. Let's take pictures of the tracks. Because so many things that we now know to be scientifically true, or historically true, started out as crazy sounding theories. Right? I mean, people I'm talking about germs. Once upon a time, if people talking about germ theory sounded like lunatics not that long ago, not that long ago, not that long ago, people were like, Oh, yeah, there's these tiny things that I can't see crawling around making me sick. Yeah, right. I mean, come on. So if we don't, if we don't approach the unknown with some kind of like, open minded, intellectually curious scientific method, then it unknown forever. And I know that you're thinking like, there's all those TV shows about, you know, Bigfoot hunters and every episode feels like no dis on these shows, because of course, I watched them. But every episode feels like, well, we're out in the woods, we got our night sight goggles and heard a branch crack and a far off scream. Could that be Bigfoot?

No, doesn't every episode that basically? Yeah, yeah. But somebody's got to go out into the woods with their night vision goggles, and patiently stalk the evidence of something we'll never know. Yeah, you know, there were two in one of the episodes of unsolved mysteries, there were two reservation police officers in New Mexico, who talked about some situation that they had with Bigfoot. And once again, it's police officers who are just dealing with the facts. And that was fascinating, too. I think there is something to it. And I understand the interdimensional thing. And I don't close my mind to it, because, hey, it's something that could happen. And it's something that I don't quite understand. But I also believe that it is very possible that those creatures live here and are here all the time.

And you have to ask yourself, the person telling you the story, what do they have to gain? What do they have to lose? Those two cops in New Mexico that you're talking about, and that's pretty contemporary, right? sightings. Tell me what they have to gain. And then tell me what they have to lose. Because I think they have more to lose. Right? Than they have much more to lose. Yes. They have the they risk losing their credibility, they were risk becoming the butt of a joke.

They risk their careers stalling out. Because you may not get promoted. If everyone in town knows you're the Bigfoot kook. Right? I mean, I will never forget of all the things that have happened to me in my radio career. And it's been pretty extraordinary and fascinating, right? I will say, but of all the things that have happened to me in my radio career, the one that really stays with me is, it was a big, big, big financial institution. And they, they refused to advertise on our show. Because I believed in UFOs. Oh, I remember that.

Remember that? Yeah, they were like, Nope, she believes in aliens. And so the CEO of the of our ad rep company said to me, girl, I gotta tell you something funny. I think it's funny. I think you'll think it's funny. But blank blank institution has flatly refused to advertise on your show. They're advertising everywhere else. They weren't advertising your show because you believe in aliens. And I was like, well, um, sucks to be them. And I guess it sucks to be me. I don't know. But I would I would want to advertise with somebody believed in aliens because people are people are listening to that. They go, Hey, you know, let me tell you something. This institution's credit cards have interest rates that are out of this world. So they believe in aliens too. Okay. Um, so my point being that when you step forward and acknowledge that you, you're willing to entertain the possibility that fantastical stuff might be real, you take a risk. Now, the the punishment for me was, and for us as a show, and as a company, it was pretty small. It's one advertiser that won't participate, right? Right. But for those New Mexico cops, it could mean you never make it to you never get to be a detective or a lieutenant or whatever the next, you don't get to be the chief, right?

Whatever the next step is. Now in Murfreesboro, Illinois, officer man wearing eventually who believed and was on the scene. For a couple of these incidents, he made it all the way to the police chief job. Because the people in that town and his fellow officers, they were there too. Yeah, they saw it. They smelled it. That weird slime. They felt it. They touched it. And let me let me address my debunker, Chad, Chad.

Why don't we have a sample of that slime? Dude, I don't know. It was um, it was July 1973. Nobody thought about DNA back then. We didn't even Yeah, we didn't. We didn't. I don't know. It's a small town. I don't know what to tell you, buddy. I don't know. But I believe these law enforcement officers when they say that they touched it and smelled it and and interacted with it. Do you believe them? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so there you go. I think that the big money monster is one of the most compelling cryptid stories about a Yeti or skunk ape or whatever.

I just think it's one of the most compelling stories. So many witnesses. It was just a couple people and that's it. I mean, so many witnesses during this time period. I mean, so much documentation. So that wraps up this episode. Thank you for joining us. We're gonna we're gonna take a little pause so that Max can get a break. And when I tell you this is the absolute truth. We are in hour 10 today.

We are that we're an hour 10 literally hour 10. And when we turn off these mics, the real work is just beginning. So Max needs a little bit of a break. So we're just going to take a really short pause on true weird stuff. And we will be back on for six with a wild episode. It's a mystery. Oh, it's a mystery in the desert. And it is one of the most epic American stories you will ever hear. He's a visionary. He's brilliant. But he's a con man. But he's not a bad guy. But he's kind of a grifter. But he's kind of got a heart of gold. He pretended to be a zillion things and wasn't any of those. But at the end, was he so bad? The king of quacks is coming up on the next true weird stuff. And then we're going to take you to one of the most unknown and mysterious, fascinating places in America, the Pine Barrens of New Jersey. And if you don't know much about the Pine Barrens, if you've never even heard of the Pine Barrens, buddy, get your popcorn and a drink because we got some stories. So thank you for joining us on this episode of true weird stuff. We make it for you. And we're sure glad you're here. And we'll see you next time. Okay, wait, wait, before we go for real. Sometimes while we're working, Max will do a placeholder to remind himself to come back to it when he's editing. And now ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, Max, as the big money monster.

Well, I got a bright future buddy. I haven't actually witnessed this myself before. But you know, we're working and Max is going, I'm going and then it made a roar. Max is like, whoa, whoa. Because I play all I'll whenever we record this, I play all the parts. Oh my gosh, it's too bad. We it's too bad. We don't keep outtakes because I about died when you first unleashed the big money monster. Okay, that's it. This time we're leaving for real. We'll see you later. Bye. And if you listen to us on Apple podcast, hit the plus button in the top right corner. And now it helps an independent podcast like ours to get discovered. And we really appreciate it. If you subscribe, rate and review true weird stuff, hit our website true weird stuff.com for show notes and photos and videos when we have it and bonus content.

Everything true weird is waiting for you at true weird stuff.com and follow true weird stuff on Instagram and Twitter. True weird stuff is a Now! Media production. Our executive producer is Anthony Garcia. The show is written and hosted by me Sheri Lynch, along with my deeply weird director Max. Our equally odd producer is Kary Bowser. Additional production by the mysterious Stephen Call our digital witch and social media cult leader is Heather Furr original graphics by Kevin Nash.

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